#35 – Dustin Gardner

#35 – Dustin Gardner

September 28th, 2026

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Angus Stocking – Host (00:00)
This is Everything is Somewhere. I’m Angus Stocking. My guest today is a returning friend of the podcast, and that’s Dustin Gardner, an LS licensed in several states that does interesting work. He also has a background as a folklorer, folklorist, I think is the term, and as a game developer and as an author. And we’re here today. Dustin is joining us to basically catch me up on his latest ventures. Dustin Gardner, thank you for making the time today and welcome back to everything is somewhere.

Dustin Gardner – Guest (00:30)
Yeah, thanks for having me back. I think we’re on this is time number four, I think.

Angus (00:36)
I think that’s right.

Yeah, and well and our last one, as I recall, was you and your co game developer, whose name I forget right at the moment. Who is that? Colin…

Dustin (00:46)
Colin, Colin Sellers.

Angus (00:47)
Yeah, and that was a super fascinating episode. Maybe start with where what state is the game at now? What’s going on there?

Dustin (00:57)
So we have the draft of the Kickstarter going. that’s that’s all to Colin’s credit, ’cause that’s totally new to me. I haven’t done anything with Kickstarter, but he’s put together I mean, a super detailed list of what’s gonna go into the game, where the money’s going, where we are currently. So he’s getting ready to kick that off. I’m hoping I know we keep saying, it’s gonna be this holiday season. This time we’re serious, it’s we’re it’s gonna be this holiday season.

Angus (01:24)
Very good.

Dustin (01:25)
So he’s he’s put in the rewards so different donors receive different tiered rewards including copies. We have copies of the creatures with compass and and some other things that he’s added that’ll come into the game. So we’re we’re getting there. it’s kind of one of those where the catch with Kickstarter is if you don’t meet your goal, then everything just goes back to who do who donated…

Angus (01:47)
Mm.

Dustin (01:48)
…and you get nothing out of it.

And so we’ve been kinda going back and forth on where we want to set that bar and what we actually need, what we need to get it done. And we don’t want to we don’t want to set it too low and say, well we can just put this out and then just get something out there. We wanna release a finished product, which is in the gaming industry is becoming more and more rare. more often, especially from the Triple A studios. They wanna put out a half baked cookie and then, well, we’ll finish it, you know, once it’s already out there. So we really want to put a final product out there. and of course I say final product meaning just, you know, polished and bugless, not necessarily that we’re not gonna add anything to it. There will be updates, and they’ll still progress with the story. and that’ll go hand in hand with the fiction series that I’m writing.

So, the book pacing is gonna be kind of dictated by the players and where we can see everyone is statistically. so how far players are progressing, how they’re handling puzzles, how they’re, you know, monitoring forums and stuff and seeing where people what they’re picking up with the story. And then once we feel like people have an understanding of what’s going on, then we can start letting more go.

Angus (03:03)
Mm.

Dustin (03:04)
So it’s going, it’s on the horizon. again, just with with two of us, both both of us being fathers and you know, not having enough surveyors we’re we’re either working or home, so we get a little hour here and there to actually polish some work. So it’s coming.

Angus (03:24)
And you mentioned Creatures of the Compass, and just to let listeners know, that your book on geospatially related monsters, I think we could put it, and that’s serving as sort of a legend for the game, is that right?

Dustin (03:37)
Yeah, so it started out as it’s an encyclopedia of a lot of folklore creatures and I tried to grab some lesser known ones and you’ve gotta throw the ones that everyone knows in there, Bigfoot, Chupacabra and the and the fun ones that sell t-shirts. but I tried to put in some lesser known ones and and the purpose of it is it’s supposed to act like a field book, so as surveyors were in the field, they made field notes regarding the interactions with these creatures and what surveyors should do in the future.

And it feeds directly into the story that we’re going with with the game and then my fiction series and essentially what’s going on there is surveyors since the inception of surveyors, which at least in in my studies place about 3500 BC with Egyptian times. And the story goes that there was a split between our world and what we’d call the other world of the the world of creatures. and that’s that’s lifted straight out of a lot of the Celtic myth believes that, right, that there’s two different realms. you know, at the time of I don’t know when you’re gonna release this, but at the time of recording, you know, we’re gonna we’re getting ready for Halloween, and that’s one of the big ones.

It’s a liminal space and time and and so Halloween is one of the nights that they believe that these things can actually come through from the other world to ours. And so the surveyors in this world we’re tasked with kind of mediating boundaries between the worlds. one of the things that we’re approaching is some creatures from the other world are allowed to inhabit the human world on conditions. there’s boundaries between their territories and ours. And I mean, like our everyday actual life, there’s all the time when people are encroaching on other space. and so the surveyors kind of act between the other world and ours and they were kind of put there because they’re already impartial mediators.

And so the story goes they believed that kings and queens royalty would be too loyal to their people. you know, the the legal standings would be too corruptible, the politicians. And so they figured, well, surveyors are already supposed to be impartial and fair, and as we talk about in you see in some of the creatures and creatures of the compass and some of the conventions that I’ve talked at, there’s usually pretty dire consequences for surveyors that are known for being corrupt. the hammer kind of falls on them. If you look side by side at the story of what happens when a peasant moves a boundary stone versus what happens when a surveyor moves a boundary stone, the shoe kinda falls harder on the surveyor. And I mean rightly so, you’re supposed to know better.

Angus (06:28)
So with great power comes great responsibility, trope, applied to surveyors, so interesting take. Yeah, super. you know, Dustin, since I have a folklore expert on the line, let me ask you a question that has kind of battered around my head for a long time. Somehow twenty years ago or more, I got the idea, I read somewhere, I I don’t think it was online, I think it was a book or somebody talking to me, that Halloween is considered by some to be a liminal time, partly for the reasons you mentioned, but also partly because it’s a traditional date of Noah’s flood or the the deluge. and so a a lot of people died that day. is there have you ever heard of that or is that something I made up in my head?

Dustin (07:15)
No, that’s I mean, it’s new to me. But it’s not I mean, that’s not gonna be something that’s how do I wanna say is out of the realm of possibility. And so one of the things you have to look at in folklore is just because it’s you know, doesn’t sound right to us or it’s not the story that we grew up with doesn’t mean it’s not right. you know, every culture has different perspectives and those are influenced by their surroundings. And so it’s very well possible that to one group it’s this is marking this point, and that’s associated with it. I know that’s the reasoning behind why Friday the thirteenth is considered bad luck, is because that was the day that the papacy turned on the Knights Templar. That was the day that all of the letters were opened and all the Knights Templar were executed. And so that’s one I know for sure. But Halloween is a midpoint in in between the solstices, as is Beltane or or Mayday is the other one. and that’s that’s largely what I’ve heard is it’s just a midpoint, soit’s a liminal squared, so…

Angus (08:24)
Super yeah, interesting. Thank you for entertaining the question. And I knew actually a bit about one of my past fascinations that I’ve I’m trying to let go of is Templar history. it’s I don’t we probably never talked about this. I’m I’ve changed quite a bit in recent years, but up until about a year ago I was considered myself a Kabbalist and an esotericist and tarot reader of some expertise and really, really big part of my life and conspiracy theory too and the Templars hit so many in the the Venn diagram of Kabbalah and magic and history and religious lore, the Templars just cover everything, you know. And that date, Friday the thirteenth, you know, it just it’s so interesting that such a vital part of our culture modern times comes from this very old religious order. So anyway, that’s an aside. So we know where the legend’s coming from and something about the game. And you have been gone how far are you into the the fiction project and what’s what’s going on there? What’s the basic idea? Are you writing adventure stories that go along with the game or that they’re set in the game? is there a series that you have in mind that you’re trying to emulate or come close to as you write?

Dustin (09:42)
Yeah, yeah. And I’ll I’m gonna I’m gonna step back and and lean on it ’cause it’s a good segue. you know, you were talking about the Templars crossing into so many fields, and that’s part of that’s part of what we do as folklorists is really watching you know, how history both affects folklore and how folklore affects history. And the Templars being such a, you know, mysterious esoteric society.

Generally one of the sayings that we have is when knowledge ends is where folklore begins. And so just like nature, people abhor a vacuum. And so when they don’t have information on something, they have a tendency to create it. and so I’ve definitely gone down. I mean, you get into this profession and you can’t not cross you know, the Templars, the other one, the big is Arthurian legend, crawls into everything, so yes. Yep.

Angus (10:35)
The Grail Quest. Yeah.

Dustin (10:39)
And and we can I can do a whole side tangent on that. I was planning a whole master’s project around around the grail and the spear.

Angus (10:47)
That would be okay with me if you want to digress and take a deep dive on the gr the Grail Quest and Ethereum Legend. That i it’s all still right here with us, right? I mean Pendragon recently released on Amazon and that, you know, touches with the Ethereum legend.

Dustin (11:04)
Yeah. And and it’s still I mean, a lot of the stuff that we do today is is some of the practices are ancient. other ones we have no idea. And it it’s really funny, you know, one of the one of the most common good luck charms, the rabbit’s foot. We have no idea where that came from. We don’t know why it’s considered lucky. you know, people still…

Angus (11:20)
I didn’t know that.

Dustin (11:21)
…have no idea where it is. You can’t trace it. Knocking on wood is still a popular one and that I mean that goes back to Celtic tribal, which we say Celtic and you think Ireland. Truth be told, it’s most of Europe. Celtic is a really broad term.

Angus (11:35)
Mm.

Dustin (11:36)
And basically what it was was, you know, I’ve said something really risky. I could use some help. And so you’d knock on the trees and call the tree spirits, which anyway. but yeah, no, with the with the Arthurian legend looking at it it was always interesting to me. one, because our common conception of of the knights is the medieval knights in shining armor, like that Chaucer High Period, in reality Arthur would have been in bearskins, really crude iron. they were four or five hundred A.D. but if you look at both the Grail and what we call the Spear of Destiny or the Spear of Longinus, it depends, you know, on the name.

If you look at the symbology behind him, the what is it, the Da Vinci Code fans will jump at it, right? It’s a blade and a chalice. They’re they’re phallic for masculine and and feminine. And you have this very, very masculine hero fear figure of Arthur. And the lore behind the spear of destiny is that so long as you have that spear with you, you can’t lose in battle. Charlemagne hunted it.

And had it for a long time. And of course, once he lost the spear, that’s when his fall came. Hitler himself, when he invaded, that was one of the first things he went for was looking for the spear. And so you have this, you know, this essentially secret weapon, this master weapon, and they’re looking for the grail, the female side, which in the you know. In a male dominated church, it’s interesting. It’s like, why look for that? And then you look at what’s going on in the Middle East at the time, that these high stories are coming out. And essentially what they’re saying is that the church is always referred to as female. and they say that that lies in the Holy Land.

And essentially the Arthurian legend stories that we know that that are the medieval knights with the f full armor, it was crusader recruiting propaganda. and but that takes all the fun out of it when you don’t think that there’s actually a a cup out there. And you can really you can really go down down a rabbit hole. but story wise we’ve we’ve we’ve diverted far. but story wise yes. So it’s for those those who know me and those who talk to me, I’m a huge fan of the Witcher series, the the books and the games. I’m gonna refrain from talking about the Netflix series. the first three seasons were great, but we’ll leave the fourth one off on its own. so that that was a heavy influence.

Angus (14:05)
Yeah, I have followed that from afar, but that was a real case of go woke, go broke, right?

Dustin (14:12)
Well, it’s one of those where we’re seeing a lot of writers and they take these beloved stories. and since we’re talking about The Witcher, you have you have a storyline laid out, and you know, this story is the story that all of the fans fell in love with, and then you have some no name writer come in and go, No, they don’t know what they want. I know what they want, so I’m gonna write it better and then they change critical parts of it and it’s like you have the template, you have, you know, the playbook to an unbelievably successful show or piece of media. All you have to do is follow it. And so it’s kind of like being handed a football with a wide open field and then deciding to run it back to your own end zone because you like, you know, the spot has shade. Like it makes no sense. So anyway.

Angus (14:58)
Mm. Good analogy. Yeah. So now we are going on a good digression, but let’s bring it back. You’re writing fiction.

Dustin (15:06)
Yeah, so so we’re gonna start out. We’re starting with a trilogy that it kicks off for the White Chapel, or during the White Chapel murders, which is some people know as the Jack the Ripper Killings. and so it’s it’s a far departure from what I did with Creatures of the Compass. It was Creatures was very tongue in cheek. you know, we talked about things but in a playful manner and you could kinda thumb at it.

This one was the opportunity to kind of talk about folklore as it appears in history, which more times than not is actually really tragic. and so we can approach some different topics. obviously life wasn’t awesome living in especially what’s considered the poor part of London during the time and so we can also explore some of the monsters that were used to I guess kind of explain the cruelties of life. So it it’s it seems like during the time, you know, people don’t want to accept that things are just horrible because that’s just, you know, it’s what life is. And so as we were talking about earlier, right, they’re trying to find some kind of meaning to it and where their knowledge ends, then folklore takes off.

And so we talk about one of the creatures that comes up and probably one of the most tragic creatures in all of Folklore is is like is the Miling, which is it’s an abandoned child that was either buried in unconsecrated ground or unwanted. and so as much as you want to say is it was a pretty isolated one off event during the time period and even before it really wasn’t you know, marriages out of wedlock. That was a death sentence essentially from someone. And so they would abandon children in the woods or or worse. And so just to kind of dip in without giving too much of the story away, you know, we touch on stuff like that, so so fair warning it is it is a heavier read. and so but it I think it’s important.

I think we need to it’s something that still needs to be discussed. because it is it it it is kind of a way to step back and look at that window of history and you can see what these people were thinking and what their life was like. And looking at the things especially that they’re particularly afraid of is a way of, you know, seeing what the common problems were in the time period. But we follow a surveyor named Percival, Talking about our Ethereum legend…

Angus (17:28)
Sure.

Dustin (17:28)
…that was lifted out of it too. And he goes to London to to work with another survey crew and trying to track down something that they’re not sure. It’s not something that they’ve come across before, but it’s laying waste to the town and causing panic. a lot of what we see today and common jokes that we have, I’ve turned into, you know, fit it into the story. So if if you pass someone on the street and they say, Hey, what do you do? and you I’m a land surveyor, and they go, Well, what’s that? I’ve taken that too. Not many people know that the surveyors are still mediating between the worlds. They don’t know what we do.

Angus (18:04)
Nice.

Dustin (18:05)
We do it anyway because it’s critically important. so and even the tools that we use, gunter chains, are weaponized, our hammers, monuments are critically important, because that’s how we seal the the gaps between our world and theirs. and so, you know, taking place in taking place in London and starting off in Scotland

Angus (18:28)
Is there an era that you’re setting this in?

Dustin (18:31)
This particular one’s gonna be in the Victorian era. So we’re gonna go once we follow the Jack the Ripper Killings, it kind of departs from it starts out as kind of a historical fiction and then it departs a little bit. and but there is more that I plan. there’s there’s I wanna do a a prequel that takes place essentially at the founding of the surveyors.

And what happens with that, I don’t think that’ll be a trilogy. I think it’ll be a sing single standalone book. one of the characters that that does appear in here was actually modeled after past guest son. it was Amanda Manos’ son, Johnny. and so we’re gonna follow him back across the pond. He’s he’s an American surveyor. and so it kinda opens up, you know, the Americas as a story. But essentially what I wanna do is open up just the world that these surveyors exist, what they do. it’s a new magic system. brass caps are incredibly rare but really, really important tools. so I’ve tried to take everything that we use and we do and twist it in a way that it’s magic but not unrealistic.

So it and I think when you look at similarly, you look at like, not that I’m comparing myself to Rowling or her success, but but the Harry Potter world, right? You look at it and it’s still this really magical and unique place, but it’s not far fetched. so you know, there’s still they found ways to cleverly hide among what the muggles, right? And so I think that was an important part when I was writing it, is it’s like this needs to be magic and it needs to be unique, but it also needs to be like believable. So so that’s where we’re going. We’re setting up the world and and yeah, I mean, the possibilities are endless. So we can keep going with the series and other authors can add in and and I think it’ll be kind of a fun world to build on.

Angus (20:21)
Wonderful. Thank you for that breakdown. and in terms of words on paper, have you you know got a book down or rough draft or w what what stage are you at?

Dustin (20:30)
Yeah, so it’s written. I’m in the third revision. and I’m at the point now where it it gets to a point with stories where you just edit it to over and over and over and it starts changing and it’s like, all right, at some point…

Angus (20:43)
I know that’s I know that point, yeah.

Dustin (20:46)
…you’re you’re just gonna have to let it go and it’s gonna be you know, ’cause if you sit there and nitpick it, then you’re gonna edit it forever and it’s never gonna get out. So it’s out. I have it to some beta readers just looking for any kind of major plot holes or you know, their general thoughts who I really didn’t like this character. so far the only complaints that I’ve gotten back are they like, well, we didn’t really explain this, and the big one is why is Percival acting this way in these periods? And I’m planning, you know, with this being a trilogy.

I don’t want everything to be neat and tidy after book one, or there will be no point for book two and three. so you know, the the feedback that I’m getting back that people are like, I’m not sure about this. It’s like, okay, cool, ’cause that’s gonna be answered. it’s a pretty big part of the next two books. So so we’re we’re getting there. I’m really, really hoping for an October release, early October. if I could do October first, then I’d be over the moon.

I’ve got an artist working on cover. So it’s close. We’re finally close. Been working on this one for I think we’re coming up on a year and a half at this point.

Angus (21:52)
Well then our timing should be pretty it’ll probably come out later in September, but not too long before your projected publication date. And I I hope it helps. This sounds fascinating and it’s super cool from a land surveyor’s perspective that it sounds like land surveyors are the mages of this world.

Dustin (22:09)
Yeah, yeah, so there’s elements of it. they’re still very human. the I guess what you’d qualify as the magic, I’ve leaned into what we’d what we’d quantify folk magic. So just essentially symbology and rituals that you would see and when you say folk magic, that was one of the the topics I tried to approach in Creatures of the Compass.

But it is so unbelievably broad and region specific that where there’s commonalities and monsters, you know, you look at well look look at Bigfoot, right? There is a different type of Bigfoot fr all over the world. but then you talk about I don’t know, my my neighbor called me a name and now I want their cow to die. There’s fifteen thousand different ways to curse your neighbor’s cow. And so it’s really hard to narrow it down to one.

But it’s not one of these where, you know, they’re not Jedi like where you have to have special things in your blood to be one. the essentially the bar for the surveyors is that you one, you have to be a land surveyor, but you have to be considered by your peers to be incredibly fair and impartial. And so there’s a selected subset of land surveyors that exist, and and by extension, leaning into the numerology world, certain LS numbers are reserved for these surveyors because those numbers contain magic. And so we’ve we’ve tried to get really detailed on it without getting so detailed that we trip on ourselves. so so yeah, it’s anyway.

Angus (23:37)
Yeah, it we should probably stop there. I because you are describing a book that I am looking forward to reading. So congratulations. And and I can’t help but ask civil engineers, are they gonna have any powers in this system or is or do we win the war this time?

Dustin (23:54)
You know, to be honest, the only pot shot that I took was at lawyers. I…

Angus (23:58)
Ha ha ha.

Dustin (23:59)
…haven’t approached the civils yet. but it it’s it’s a possibility for a future book. Right now it’s really just left it to the land surveying profession.

Angus (24:08)
Very good. and speaking of lawyers, I hope to be speaking again with Lloyd Pilchen, another episode coming up. and I’ll be sure to let him know that he’s a land surveyor who became a lawyer and writes for American Surveyor like you and like me.

So I’ll discuss that with him. You mentioned the Amanda Manos, whom I just interviewed. I wonder, it made me think of another previous guest, Pete Kelsey, that’s been on the show twice now. And the first episode I think he would really like. we talked about his talent or desire. He’s been applying very high-tech geospatial tools to traditionally supernatural topics, and you mentioned Bigfoot. He actually I don’t know if you heard this episode, but it was interesting to me. He got scanners and software up into the site where the bat Patterson Gimlin film was filmed, and was able to find plenty of rocks and trees and other features.

That were still present in the landscape that were present at the time of the film was shot. And so he created a three-dimensional environment that is calibrated to the film and the creature film and opens up the possibility of getting precise measurements of the the creature size and shoulder width and so forth and
so it it adds so much data to you know, a fantastic topic that just super interesting stuff. And then he also talked about Skinwalker Ranch, where he’s been many, many times trying to get some good data out of there and the stories he was telling was just talk about liminal spaces. GPS does not work in Skinwalker Ranch. Anyway, you probably like those episodes.

Dustin (26:03)
Yeah, no, that’s that’s definitely something I’d love to get involved in, especially with the ranch. it’s very lock and key anymore, but there is I mean a lot of stories that have come out of there. And even the four corners area, so no, no, yeah, I love it.

Angus (26:20)
So we’ve talked about the game and the writing and looking forward to that. and I don’t mind telling you that the first time we talked about this, I was kind of, you know, dubious that you guys are gonna get there. but you’re talking about something that’s maturing up you know quite nicely, and people should start seeing books available for order pretty soon and the games coming out. So congratulations. It’s I know it’s a lot of hard work. We’ve talked in the past about your straight up surveying and also your charity, Caritas. could you catch us up on what are you doing for a living now? where are you surveying and what’s day to day work like and also how’s the characters doing?

Dustin (26:59)
So I am a project manager for Diamondback now. loving it. Stepped stepped away from heavy corporate and went back to family owned. Love it. that’s you know, that’s where I grew up, it’s where I was raised and and so it’s it it was a lot easier transition for me in day to day. Caritas is something we have we’ve officially dissolved our portion of it of the umbrella of Caritas.

Angus (27:24)
Mm.

Dustin (27:25)
And we’ve kind of delegated our assets to other firms locally. And the reason was was really it goes back to time. We spent so much money and time and effort just keeping up with Uncle Sam’s paperwork that you know when we did the math, the amount of money that we were putting in just to keeping a website and submitting forms and hiring people to help us with the reporting.

You know, it’s like we could have just done that for an already established charity that has people doing that full time and then we can go back to you know the fun part of it and that was actually helping and getting involved. and so we’re looking to expand with there’s a group in town called Youth Futures and it helps homeless children.

And they have a Gateway to Adulthood program where essentially it’s like a schooling once they age out, they hit 18. it gives them the opportunity to go and find a trade or a mentorship in some field. And so we’re really hoping to open that up to surveying. and my big dream with them would be to take these kids on as as survey assistants and train them how to, you know, this is how you set up equipment, write a laugh.

Just very general, I guess what you’d call the machete work, and then say, Okay, now do you wanna stay here in Utah or would you like to go work for a surveyor in Florida or California or Montana? and then reach out to the survey firms and say, Here’s what we’ve got. We’ve got a kid, we’ve trained him to do X, Y, and Z. He really wants to live here. we just need to know that you’re gonna be a mentor to him. And so we’ll help move him or her, we’ll set them up with getting their own apartment.

Cause by the time that they’ve graduated out of this transitional schooling, I guess, to adulthood, they’ve set up their own bank accounts. They know how to apply for for rentals. They know how to do, you know, day to day life stuff that schools don’t teach you. and, you know, kind of falls on your family unit to teach you that they don’t have. And so trying to just get into life and and hopefully find them a spot within the profession because it is a very small profession, it’s tight knit. and so I think there’ll be a lot of success there. so that’s that’s my big hope. That’s what we’re stepping to now. I’m just not gonna pay Uncle Sam and do his paperwork. I’m just gonna go do it on my own and you know, if you wanna arrest me for sidestepping you guys then you know where to find me. But…

Angus (29:51)
Well, live and learn, it sounds like.

Dustin (29:52)
Well they’ve been learning something.

Angus (29:53)
Maybe we can close on something that I find interesting. one of the last times we talked, I don’t think during an episode, but I learned that you were a practicing devout Catholic, which was interesting to me because I think right at the time I was just starting to discern Catholicism after some big spiritual experiences of of mine.

And in this episode you’re talking about the spirit the the Grail Legends as a recruiting tools and the sphere of Londonus and sphere of destiny and one of the things that’s been interesting to me is I come from a like an esoteric kind of secular background, really recovering from youthful Christian cult actually. I spent a long time in my life, like twenty years, trying to decide that religion, organized religion was a problem, but there there was you know, I was kind of the of the spiritual, not religious camp, which really didn’t work out very well for me, but it was really gratifying to learn as I started to begin to appreciate the two thousand years of Catholic history was that there is you know, you talk about magic system…

Magic is not the right word, but in terms of supernatural intrusion into life, the the th the things that, you know, sounds like you and I know me that I find fascinating about the world is its fantastic, supernatural, miraculous aspects. And that is like a developed science and history within the 2000 years of Catholicism. And you seem to have tapped into that in your game making and fiction writing exploits. could you comment basically how has your faith, if you will, affected your creative life and maybe even your work life?

Dustin (31:42)
Yeah, so I was raised I was raised Roman Catholic, went to Roman Catholic school all the way through senior year of high school. And so you go through the books, you go through the education, and to be completely honest, all the way through senior year, it was it was very just these are the rules, this is why you do it. Very academic, I guess, and got out of college, got married, was still kind of, I guess, I kept it at arm’s length. and, you know, even my wife when we lived in Arizona when we first moved there, she joined a non denominational group and she was trying to get me to go and it’s like no I’m not going and you know, she kept pushing, pushing. He said, Fine, here’s the condition. If you can get eighty percent of your group, which I think it was ten people, so eight of to actually show up at one of our, you know, events for the kids, you know, prove to me that you can be Christ like, then I’ll believe you and take this seriously. And they didn’t. And there was kind of a couple really difficult moments I guess leading into that where it kind of you know you really get knocked down and it comes to the point where you have people looking to you. I had a newborn on the way and a wife that I wanted to make sure that she could be, you know, a mom and not have to worry about work or childcare or whatever. and you’re kind of cornered in the spot and you have nowhere to go but back. And so it was at that time that it’s the my religious life really kicked back up as of late, we’ve actually moved into orthodoxy and kind of stepped back from the Roman church just a hair. And so we’re inquiring there. and you know growing up my whole life they o you know it was it’s it’s one Catholic church. The only thing that the Orthodox believe that we don’t is is the Pope. And now that we’re over we’re realizing that’s true, but not completely, and there’s a lot more to it than that. and so we’ve been moving that way. and really the big difference for me was it just felt like I was trying to be sold something. and it was another governmental system.

Angus (33:47)
Mm.

Dustin (33:48)
And so it’s like, you know, I really want to focus on the values, and as weird as it is, the more that you read into folklore and we look at these supernatural elements, the more it pushes you into a religious lifestyle. And one of the things that I was very cautious of doing with creatures of the compass was to not include demons specifically.

Angus (34:13)
Mm.

Dustin (34:13)
And that extends to the djinn and the dybbuk of Muslim and and Jewish communities.

And to be honest from from my high school, that’s one thing that like I’ve remembered distinctly was we had one priest, an Augustinian. he was in his late eighties by the time I was in high school. And he was one of the types of Catholic that Harry Potter’s evil, it’s the worst thing on earth, there’s no such thing as magic. you know, keep it at arm’s distance. He was a trained exorcist, and he talked about it very matter of fact.

And he had done I I think he was somewhere in the realm of like eighty some exorcisms in his lifetime. And he was completely open about it. And you know, in my mind just looking at it rationally, you know, at the time everything was very academic. It was if A and B then C. And if he believes that magic is ridiculous, but he talks about this very matter of fact, then by n you know, by logically, it has to be very matter of fact. and so you know, the more you read about this, the more it kind of pushes you back over. and one of the books that I don’t think is talked about enough. I I recently actually is just past two years or three years. because it’s a non-canonical scripture is actually the book of Enoch. And if you read the book of Enoch, it’s a it’s an old testament chapter. and essentially with that is it talks about the angels that fell, actually fell before Satan, was the watchers.

Angus (35:38)
I actually knew a bit about Enoch long before I started thinking about Catholicism because it’s a big one in in con conspiracy theory. the idea of the watchers and remnant giants and giant it’s i it has a very good biblical Impermature. I there’s there’s a lot of reasons for Christians and Jewish people too to pay attention to it. But it’s also very current with conspiracy theory at this time and seems to have a prophetic element. A anyway, I I’m interrupting, but I I do have some background with the book of being a…

Dustin (36:16)
Yeah, and that’s totally I mean that’s that’s totally relevant. And and one of the things for me was was they talk extensively about the Nephilim or the Giants.

Angus (36:25)
Yeah.

Dustin (36:25)
And then as I was studying the southwest folklore, one of the few times that the native tribes really rallied in a war, specifically there Nevada and Utah, they were talking about these gigantic creatures with red hair that were known for eating people and they eventually back them into a cave in Nevada and then they burned them out.

Angus (36:48)
Outside of Lovelock, right?

Dustin (36:50)
Yeah. And so to me, you know, you look at the book of Enoch and I know it’s non-canonical and and so the, you know, religious side says don’t touch it, but it the Bible itself, even in the canonical chapters, talks about the Nephilim several times. You know, we talked about the flood originally and that was the purpose for the flood was, growing up we always we were taught, it’s because everyone was just they became too corrupt.

And that’s not the case. It’s their bloodline became corrupt and Noah’s was the only one that didn’t contain watch or blood in it. But even then in the in the Bible it says, you know, the Nephilim will still remain, but this is gonna get rid of most of them. And so when you look at native tribes that this story happened before e Western interference, Western Europe European interference.

What are the odds that these creatures that fit the descriptions that we’ve seen that match the description of Goliath and these other creatures, what’s the odds that they came up with the exact same description for this this problem? So Mm and so

Angus (37:46)
Mm. Down to the red hair, right? Mm-hmm.

Dustin (37:51)
And and it’s not even limited to them. You know, you have i if you go down the rabbit hole in the Kandahar Giant, and there’s more I mean there’s so much that you can go into. And so in

Angus (38:01)
Well, here’s one for you. Giants come up in mound culture histories.

Dustin (38:06)
Yeah. No, it’s everywhere. So it’s one of those where I think there was a similar quote for science too, I don’t remember who said it. So you know, you can discredit me if you want. I don’t remember where it came from. But they said, you know, someone under that understands science comes away from God, but the one that really understands science comes back to him.

And I think folklore is the same. you know, there was a while there where you just go, it’s just it’s just another mythology, it’s just another story. And then you start looking at historical accounts and you go, Well, I don’t think so. and the more you look at it, the more you go, There is, you know, very real evil things and people in this world. and so I do think it’s I do think it’s important.

So that was that was our big shift. yeah, we’ve moved over to moved over to to orthodoxy. and it’s very they don’t really tout it. When when we went in the first time and I just asked them and I was kind of sparring with them as a Roman Catholic saying, Well, what about this? And why do you think this? my priest was very careful not to say, you know, you’re you’re talking about this like a religion, and it’s not a religion, it’s lifestyle.

And in all of my time as a Roman Catholic, I never really considered this as a lifestyle. It’s this was a religion, these are my practices, these are my beliefs. And it was very, very textbook and and laid out clean and I liked it because it was this was, you know, everything was measured. and so I I think that reading and understanding both branches, pre and post schism, I think is important for anybody. You know, following and trying to be more Christ like.

So but the big thing, and one of the big things that we pushed with Caritas was the most important thing that you could possibly do is action. And so you can go and tell people that you’re Christian. You could follow all the fasts, you could go to confession, whenever. But if you don’t go out and actually do something to benefit people who need help, then you’re you’re so unbelievably short of the finish line that it doesn’t matter.

And so that’s that’s been our big push still is is to remain active in the community and you know, I hope there’s a day that it’s unneeded, but I right now more than ever we need people, I mean, volunteering and that whether you know, we’ve chosen foster kids just because that’s what spoke to us, but that’s may not be your case. You might be a veteran and you want to help out at the VA. You might be, you know, even something as simple as just going to your local retirement home and reading and talking to people. You don’t even have to do anything. Just go hang out. you know, just be a voice in the community and try and do something better for someone else. So…

Angus (40:45)
Dustin, you have a very nice way of I ask a question that I think is gonna be a little ordinary and you give an answer that opens up whole worlds to me and I really appreciate it. And it certainly bodes well for your fiction and for your game developing project. so thank you for that and thank you for your time today.

Dustin (41:07)
Yeah, thanks for having me. Happy to be back again.