#37 – Brandon Biggs

#37 – Brandon Biggs

October 26th, 2026

Editor’s Note: Full episode video is available here.

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Angus Stocking (00:15.734)
This is Everything Is Somewhere. I’m Angus Stocking. My guest today is Brandon Biggs. He’s an entrepreneur and a scholar in the area of making maps and mapping-based professions accessible to the visually impaired. And I’ll let him introduce himself at greater length in just a moment. Before that, though, I wanted to record this quick introduction concerning an interesting experience I had as I was setting up this recording. I logged in to a virtual studio and Brandon logged in and that’s very typical.

And when I logged in and he was there, he could not hear me and he could not seem to see me. Now that happens. I’m often unable to hear at first, and I log out and I log back in. Him not being able to see me was strange, though. That’s usually very simple. And in fact, I couldn’t make that work! I finally ended up turning off my computer and restarting it and logging back in, and he could hear me, but he still couldn’t seem to see me. And it was very strange. That never happens.

But we went ahead with the recording and I soon found out why he couldn’t see me. And you’re about to find out too. And it’s interesting and it will make you think better of Brandon, I think. He was a perfect gentleman and very helpful as we worked through the problem. And I turned out to be a bit of a fool, and it’s pretty exciting. So welcome to Everything is Somewhere, Brandon Biggs.

Brandon Biggs – Guest (02:12.654)
My name, like you said, is Brandon Biggs, and I am the CEO of XR Navigation, a PhD candidate at the Georgia Institute of Technology, and an engineer at the Smith-Kettlewell Eye Research Institute. And all my work is focused around how do we make geographic maps usable to everyone. So, to kind of demonstrate what I’m talking about here, I want you to close your eyes and imagine. You smell the smoke and pull up a wildfire evacuation map and you hear map region graphic clickable blank.

That’s my experience when accessing ninety-nine percent of the maps on the web today as a totally blind person. Open your eyes. Because of that, people with disabilities, people who are blind, mobility impaired, who aren’t able to use a mouse, dyslexic, print dyslexic, a lot of people with autism, many people who are illiterate; a lot of folks who have different barriers, who face different barriers when trying to access geographic maps are unable to.

And this keeps them out of the more than thousand professions that, you know, everyone listening to this podcast probably works in because they can’t use geographic maps. And, you know, companies like Esri and Google and Mapbox have attempted to try and make their maps accessible; Esri is doing a great job of, but extremely slowly.

And it’s an area that is really critical right now because in April 2027, the Department of Justice has stated that every single digital map published by a state or local government, including those coming from engineering firms that are creating PDFs that will be published publicly, need to be fully accessible to everyone by April twenty twenty seven.

And there’s no way on earth that Google, sorry, the Esri is going to, you know, meet that deadline. And so that’s that’s where, you know, my work comes in and and where where all the focus that I kind of have around this space comes in. I answer the question of what is an accessible map? How does it sound like, what does it look like, you know, what are some examples? That’s what my PhD dissertation is focused on.

Angus Stocking (04:31.456)
And maybe before we get into that, just to set the table a little bit, I learned because we’re on a video call shortly before we started speaking that you’re blind yourself. Is that the correct term? Are you? Yes, Okay. And not to out you, but certainly on can I ask, how did this become were you born blind? Is this v is it a very personal how did you get interested in maps in the first place?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (04:45.048)
Visual coder, blind, yes.

Brandon Biggs – Guest (05:00.076)
Yeah, so I’m totally blind from birth. It’s a congenital disease. And growing up, I saw about six maps in my entire life between the ages of zero and twenty-two. I saw about six maps. And, you know, kind of put this into perspective. How many maps have you seen, Angus, in the last week? You know, think of you know, hurricane maps, weather maps, election result maps, gerrymandered maps, you know, how many maps have you seen in the last week?

Angus Stocking (05:30.616)
Sure. And what do you mean you you saw six? what what was the nature of that seeing it?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (05:36.032)
Yeah, so so t typically able bodied people who can view maps, they view like three hundred maps a year. Blind people view less than one map a year on average. And these are tactile maps, digital maps, anything where you can understand the shape, the general spatial information and relationships. And these are things like shape, size, orientation, distance direction, you know. A lot of people think, I’m listening to the turn by turn directions on Google Maps. That is not a map.

A map is something where you can actually understand shapes and all those variables that I mentioned earlier. So I when growing up only saw a a map of the US. there’s a puzzle map that’s quite famous from the American Printing House for the Blind that that me and a lot of other people of my generation had as children. And now there there’s a little bit more out there around tactile maps, but you know, tactile maps, they’re great.

The problem is they only show about twenty features on them, maybe fifty if you’ve got a giant tactile map of the US, you’ve got fifty features. that that is that’s great if you you can get that, but there’s no way for you to actually get anything more complicated than that. These are static tactile maps. So if say for example we were sh showing Lewis and Clark’s journey across the you know, the the the northwest, there’s no way for me to get a map of that unless if a person, a Braille transcriber, went in and they would manually create a tactile graphic of that, which would take about a month.

And then I’d also need to learn how to read the tactile graphic and then learn how to read the braille labeling the tactile graphic. So it takes a really high level of literacy and it’s super slow. And what ends up happening in K-12 education is students just don’t get access to this type of information because it’s just so complicated and difficult and a lot of teachers are just like, you know what, screw it. It’s not important anyway.

So that keeps a lot of blind people and I know blindness because I’m personally blind, so I can tell you from my this is this is my own experience. they say, you know, blind people don’t need to know this. They’re never going to go into a profession like, you know, geology or or land surveying or anything like that because it’s just it’s just going to be too inaccessible. Mm-hmm. And so that keeps these blind people from actually learning and being in getting interested in the these these professions, which is really unfortunate.

Angus Stocking (08:11.864)
Brandon, can I ask a this may be an insensitive question and wave it off if I’m being gauche. but as you started to engage with maps, what did what was the motivation? What did crocking a map, coming to understand the spatial arrangements over distance, what did that add to your understanding of the world? How did it improve your worldview, I guess we could say?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (08:37.496)
Yeah. My first kind of experience with digital cartography was in my inclusive design master’s degree. So getting my master’s degree when I first started accessing digital geographic maps for the first time. And my advisor asked me to make the Napoleon’s March of 1812 accessible through sound. And I looked at that and was like, wow, this is really weird. I have really no idea how to do this.

And while I was doing that, I was playing a first person shooter zombie killer game that was completely through sound and it’s a what we call an audio game. And these are games that are made by and for blind people. And I was running around this post apocalyptic world, running through, you know, abandoned shopping centers and gas stations. And I realized, wait, this is a map. And if I use these same conventions on the real world or, you know, on Napoleon’s March of 1812.

I can communicate all this spatial information in the same way that I’m getting it in this game. And so I didn’t invent the techniques that we’re using to display, you know, this information, but I’m I’m taking a lot of inspiration from what other people have done previously and applying it to the real world. And when I got access to geographic maps for the first time, I was able to like for example, in the twenty twenty four election, our team, which is primarily comprised of blind people, were able to experience that, I don’t know if you want to say the the map day, you know, where you’ve got you’re you’re constantly like refreshing the map to see how the election is going.

And that is a very like the entire country is doing that at the same time. And so we were able to do it as well for the first time. otherwise, what we have to do is kind of arrow through tables, which kind of give you the same data, but it doesn’t give you any spatial information. So when people say there’s a blue wave or a red wave or whatever, this is like completely fabricated and un-relatable. And so when we actually had a map, we were able to say, wow, these you know, this is a red wave and I I understand what they’re talking about or the blue wall. I understand what they’re talking about here. And that was a really a a special experience.

And you know when when the eclipse happened in twenty twenty four as well, people were talking about the lines of totality. And, you know, of course, when I think of a line of totality, I think of a line, but it’s really not. It’s actually more of an amorphous blob that goes over, you know, from Texas and curls over to, you know, Maine. And then on either side of it are degradations of or different bands of 70% totality, 95% totality.

That kind of thing. And when we were able to overlay that data on top of the US, I was able to figure out, okay, here’s where my house is going to be in totality. Here’s where my family’s going to be in totality. If we wanted to go see the eclipse, here’s the closest location where we’re going to be in complete totality. You know, so it just really opened up a lot of experiences that I just never even could imagine existed. And when we give blind people access to these maps for the first time.

That’s really what it is. I’m working right now with a climate a a blind climate physicist and he’s starting to put the data that he has been researching with. He’s been reading coordinates manually. So looking at latitude and longitude and just reading the points off manually in order to do data analytics. And that’s horrendous. And he’s built you know, model machine learning models and stuff like that to help him answer questions, but when he actually was able to get his maps into audio for the first time, it was like mind blowing for him. And he thought it was the coolest thing on earth. And he’s actually now working as a as a full on developer on our project to build out the functionality that he needs to do his job. So that’s a that’s a an amazing, you know, kind of example of what happens when people get access to representations for the first time.

Angus Stocking (12:50.978)
Then you are just opening up new worlds to me. and I really appreciate it. You’re very eloquent in describing the the issues you face. I know for me, you know, what comes to mind first for mapping, there’s my professional work when I used to be a land surveyor and boundary maps and so forth, but day to day now at this point in my life it would be more you know, simple navigation, getting from one place to another. Is that to ask what’s it’s probably a dumb question, but if you, for example, had a map or a tactile map of a a campus or a large building or a neighborhood, would that experience then help you to navigate? Would that get the spatial arrangements of where you’re trying to get to in your mind well enough to walk or to walk better to or even drive, I suppose, to another place, to get from one place to another is navigation enhanced by reading tactile maps.

Brandon Biggs – Guest (13:55.884)
Yes, absolutely. So there are two parts of navigation. And there’s actually a profession which has both of them together. There’s orientation and mobility. And orientation is the idea where you build a mental representation in your mind of space. You understand how different features are related to each other. And when you are you know cognitively trying to understand.

Okay, we’re this road is going from this direction, you know, to here. There’s this other road that intersects it, and that road actually goes to this other location. You know, so you get these this kind of overall gestalt understanding of the of space. Then you’ve got mobility, and that’s getting you from point A to point B. And so oftentimes, and what’s been happening in the past is 90 of navigation training for blind people has been focused on mobility and mobility devices.

That’s great. That’s awesome. But no almost no focus has been given to orientation. And yes, when when you’re given a tactile map, it’s not going to be perfect. like it’s not going to tell you exactly what to do, but it’s going to give you an idea so that when you actually do navigate there, it’s not you walking into a void of emptiness and trying to, you know, feel along the edge of the sidewalk to try and understand is this gonna am I hitting a intersection or whatever?

You know, as a blind person, I consider there to be four different elements that need to be present in order for you to be confident while navigating. You’ve got your internal representation of space, you’ve got external representations of space, which are maps, you’ve got turn-by-turn directions and signage. And typically a blind person doesn’t have any of that when they’re walking through a space. And so the more that we can enable each one of these different modes of information gathering to build up the navigation, you know, your internal representation, that is going to be a better experience for you as a navigator.

So the turn by turn directions are great, but they don’t tell you what’s around. Maps are great, they only tell you what’s around. They don’t necessarily tell you every little turn when you’re physically walking through the space. So you have to remember it. Signage helps you, you know, navigate to the exact door that you’re looking for at that last meter. So all these are pieces that need to be combined together in order to build the perfect navigation experience.

Angus Stocking (16:33.838)
We’ve been talking a lot about tactile maps, which I’m visualizing or assuming is something like you know, embossed lines on a map, or is you something like Braille where you can feel it with your fingertips and feel shapes and a relationship. Is that is that a very simple but accurate summation of tactile maps, or is there more to it in terms of encoding information? How to what’s

What would it look like to me or feel like to me if I was engaging with a tactile map that you know?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (17:08.172)
Yeah, a basic, you know, tactile map. There’s like two different terms types. There are 3D model maps that have little miniature versions of the different features in the environment. And then there are two dimensional raised line drawings which have a like a raised line graphic that you can feel with your fingers. So and they do have braille on them. And and so those are are definitely two different types of tactile maps.

There’s also a new type of tactile map going on to the into the world now through what are called full page braille displays. And these are what I would liken to having a monitor that has more than one line at a time. So if you think back into the early 70s, DO DOS consoles only could show one line of text at a time. That’s what blind people have had until this year or early last year. And all of a sudden, two different companies, three different companies came out with full page braille displays where you could actually feel braille dots in a pin matrix across, you know, an entire page sized display.

And these are what are coming out now. And Audium, which is our tool, now integrates with those full page braille displays as well as having its primary function, which is the non-visual digital experience that doesn’t require braille. It’s just through interactive text and audio. So audio is a visual, auditory, text and tactile map viewer and editor, and you can access maps in any one of those modalities or any of those modalities combined.

Angus Stocking (18:48.438)
Does that allow for a dynamic element? Yeah. Can lines move or points move?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (18:55.298)
Yep. Yeah, absolutely. So the dynamic the braille displays, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s new. That’s only the last couple of years. Yeah.

Angus Stocking (19:03.928)
Super interesting. Okay. And I guess just you I was approached by your publicist or associate, and there is a commercial aspect to what you’re doing now. Is that right? You have a you’re an entrepreneur, you have a a business you’re starting.

Brandon Biggs – Guest (19:20.086)
Yes, that’s right. So the research that I’ve been doing is we we’ve done about thirteen academic co designs and evaluations. soon to be more than that, like seventeen. But we’ve finished thirteen of them and we we’ve been researching a tool and and and the tool that we’ve been researching is now put into commercial use, primarily because you know, most maps are blank to me as a as a blind person.

And so I wanted to facilitate people actually making their maps usable. And so Audium is this product that we are talking about and commercializing. And it’s basically a plug-in to any existing geographic information system that you have. So we’ve got an experience builder plugin. We can integrate with existing published feature layers. And it’s fully web content accessibility guidelines, AA compliant.

And so what that means is that anybody can use this. It’s compliant to the upcoming ADA Title II regulations that are going into effect in April. And it’s the first map viewer that I have found that actually meets all these requirements. And, you know, companies like Esri, they publish what are called accessibility conformance reports. And you can read them and they’re very clear. They’re very honest.

They do not meet these requirements. And Audium is the first one to meet these requirements and we guarantee accessibility. And

Angus Stocking (20:48.414)
Yeah, forgive me, I’m not clear on exactly what it is. Does audio make something or establish guidelines or what is…

Brandon Biggs – Guest (20:58.094)
It’s a digital map viewer and editor. So what you would do is you would connect your existing data set to Audium. It’s a a browser plugin. And you basically tell Audium how to read your data set, and then you get an iframe that you can publish on your next to your existing map or inside your existing map. And so you have two different tabs. One of them’s the current map and the other one’s the accessible map.

And so you can choose which one you want to experience. And so as a blind person, I’m probably going to click on the accessible map and you can then explore that map in whichever modality you wish: visual, audio, tactile, or interactive text. And so to kind of give you an idea, the visual experience of Audium allows you to switch between using patterns and colors for somebody who’s colorblind.

Zoom in up to 200% for people who are low vision. Everything on there is really high contrast for people who are low vision. You can click on different objects to have them read out to you through speech for people who are illiterate or have text, aren’t able to read text. And then the non-visual version of Audium is like a video game where users hear the name and sound of objects as they move a character around the map a user-specified distance using their arrow keys, touch screen, or other controllers.

So as you move over d an object, for example, it’s gonna say something like Johnson Street and make the sound of a concrete footstep. And you move one step to the right and it’s gonna say Fillmore’s pet store. And that’s going to make the sound of maybe like a pet doggy bag crinkling and then the sound of a cash register in the matter of thirty milliseconds. Something like that. So it allows you to hear the text as you’re moving around, like, you know, film more pet store. And then you go up and it’s gonna say, you know, another shop on, you know, Johnson’s Pizzeria.

And then you can move around these different shapes and understand how they’re laid out on the map really quickly. And that allows you to and answer different questions about you know, what clock face direction is Johnson’s pet store from the Bank of America or which building bordering Johnson’s Pet Store is the tallest or something like that. So you can answer any type of spatial question that you can think of using this type of interface. And that’s just through interactive text and audio.

Angus Stocking (23:31.987)
Could you describe a potential client or use case? where do you see this being used in the near future?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (23:39.362)
We just had an article published in ArcNews featuring one of our clients, the Wisconsin Geological Natural History Survey. And they recently integrated Audium into the Quaternary map of Wisconsin. And this is a map that shows all the different sediments over Wisconsin and how the glaciers basically created Wisconsin. And this was a a very scientific map at you know, had 17 layers on it, 3,000 features. And so this is an example of a state entity, the Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey, who is working to make their maps fully accessible to everyone. So basically any type of map that’s published publicly is required to be accessible by April 2027. And this is one of our clients that we just had published in Ark News. So that’s kind of an example, but basically any map, city zoning maps, election result maps.

Transit maps, if you do any kind of public comment or open for public feedback, those are maps that need to be fully usable to everyone. And, you know, like I was saying, this is just because these are groups that have been left out historically. So to give you an example, a in a city that I was recently living in, the Public Transit Authority published a complete bus route redesign of their entire transit bus map.

And they asked for public feedback. So they sent a a survey out. And when I opened this survey, the very first item on that survey was a map. And it was completely blank. And every single question on that survey required me to use that map to answer questions about, you know, how does this impact your route to work? You know, what are your thoughts on this map? And

Despite being someone who’s completely reliant on public transit, I’m totally blind. I cannot drive. The only way for me to independently get around is through using public transit. So despite being someone who’s completely reliant on public transit, I was unable to let my voice be heard by the public transit authority. And I emailed them and asked for an accessible version and they never got back to me. and thankfully, somebody at the Department of Transportation did get back to me, even though that’s a different department, and they were able to tell me the bus route in front of your house didn’t change.

But that doesn’t help me like a ton. I’m not able to say, you know, how does this impact me going to the farmer’s market every week? How does this impact my ability to go to you know, work where I need to transfer? How does it impact me going to the hospital or to any friend’s house? So these are the people who are using public transit more than anyone else and you know, they’re they’re not being heard in in this type of survey. So that’s why this is so important. Yeah. And that’s why the Department of Justice has has published this rule. Because people haven’t been making their maps accessible and they need to because these people are being left out.

Angus Stocking (26:40.526)
Yeah, it seems a little bit like you’re at a very interesting phase of accessibility research. It kinda sounds to me like it hasn’t been a super active field for a long time and you are kinda coming into it or maybe you’re helping establish a very things are moving quickly now in terms of what’s available. Why is that a fair summation? Is it an exciting time for accessibility?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (27:05.418)
Absolutely. So nobody has really defined that the requirement, section one, point one, of the web content accessibility guidelines states all non-text content, so these are like visual maps, need to have a text alternative that serves the equivalent purpose. And so what this means is that every visual map needs to have a text map that serves the equivalent purpose. But nobody has ever defined what equivalent purpose means.

And so the very first task was in my dissertation and a public paper that we published in March of this year defines what exactly equivalent purpose means for a text map. And it goes through these variables like shape, size, orientation, and you can ask, you know, 15 questions to define if what you have is actually a map. And so you know, until I published that paper, nobody have ever asked what exactly is a map and what is equal to a visual map. And so that is definitely new. There’s been about fifteen other researchers in the last twenty or thirty years that have focused on digital audio maps.

And I know a most of them. And so it’s a very, very, very small field. And thankfully, you know, regulations like what the Department of Justice is is putting out are really putting digital accessibility into the spotlight. And so research that we’ve done over the last several years, several decades, is finally actually being put into use and people are are willing to implement it into their products like the Wisconsin Geological and Natural History Survey. So that’s amazing. And hopefully it’s going to lead to a much more equal society where everybody’s able to participate in the democratic process and participate in the professions that all your listeners work in.

Angus Stocking (29:00.512)
Super interesting. thank you for this. I I kinda wanna close on a personal question. For lack of a better term, you seem like a highly knowledgeable and expert blind person. And you know get out in the world, you’re in a I I’m seeing you in an office setting, so you commute to work, I assume. Could you maybe describe a day in the life and how it’s for you and how it’s enhanced or improved by the obvious work you put into developing expertise spatially and then moving around the world.

Brandon Biggs – Guest (29:35.948)
Yeah, absolutely. The unfortunately most of the maps that I I encounter are the ones that we make because there’s just not that many out there, unfortunately. And so when I do get access to a map, say for example I go to a conference that that uses our our map viewer, I’m using the map to explore around the neighborhood to find the hotel that’s closest to the conference venue. so I can enter in an address, you know, the starting location is gonna be this hotel, the the ending location is gonna be this hotel. sorry, the the the the convention center.

And then I’m able to explore the route before I actually go, that could tell me, is this route actually something that’s walkable? Because you know, I’m gonna need to walk that. Or what’s even more important is if say for example, the Uber drops me off in front of the convention center and I’m gonna just walk in a lot of areas close off the front of the convention center during the conference. So how do I get from the Uber to the door of the convention center? And then if they have a map of the building, then with audio I’m able to virtually explore and walk with my little character around the building and go from my current, you know, the entrance to the first room that I’m gonna be in and then get out of there and go to the second room I’m gonna be in.

And I can virtually explore and get lost without fear of actually physically getting lost, which is a huge fear for a blind person. And in something like a building in particular, because there are some areas where there’s absolutely no one and if you scream for help, nobody’s gonna hear you in these big convention centers. So, you know, how do I get from point A to point B? And they’re really confusing even for sighted people to go around get around. and you know, as a blind person who has no way to access signage, I I’m basically helpless if I don’t have a map or a a sighted guide at at this point in time. So having that map really gives me confidence to independently navigate by myself. Otherwise I’m really helpless.

Angus Stocking (31:35.552)
Interesting. That’s super. I pray I don’t mind letting you know I’ve been a little humbled by this conversation. I really didn’t know what I was getting into and I I’m not a person who deals with the blind or and I don’t know what that says about me, but your insight has been so refreshing and I guess one question that it’s kind of been niggling at me, so I feel like you’re describing the beginning of a hockey stick curve in terms of technology advancements. Would you care to do some future casting for us? Maybe in five or ten years, if things really go well, what might become possible for the blind that isn’t now?

Brandon Biggs – Guest (32:21.772)
Yeah, absolutely. We’re gonna have blind people in these cartographic dependent professions. Right now there are two in the entire world. There’s one oceanographer working for the Woodshole Oceanographic Institute, and there’s one climate scientist working at Stanford, and both of these, by the way, work with my company. I am desperate to find blind people working at an earth sciences or any of these cartographic dependent professions. so they’re gonna be able to independently do their job.

There’s going to be a new group of blind people and disabled people in general. It’s not just blind people, but disabled people in general getting into these professions. You mentioned you never really thought about working with disabled you know, collaborators. That’s because they just don’t exist in cartographic-dependent professions. And they will. We will start seeing blind or disabled geologists and city planners and surveyors and all these people that rely on maps.

And just as, you know, a lot of people do see blind people working in in professions like technology, you know, tech or public service will start seeing them in these other professions as well. Also, people in professions like architecture, they’ll start getting jobs doing work with applications like Autodesk and stuff like that. Applications that are extremely impossible to use right now with a a screen reader. So these are like just entire worlds of spaces that are are completely devoid of these people who aren’t able to use geographic maps. And they will finally be in these professions.

Also, the public comment periods, you know, for bus route redesigns or new building permits, you’ll actually start hearing from the disabled communities that are most impacted by those changes. They’ll talk to you about it if you go and physically talk to them. but most community engagement projects don’t do that. And it’s just because the technology that’s being used to collect the public feedback is not accessible. So the y you know, this this future in 5-7 years is that all all these different tools across the United States will be fully accessible.

And thankfully, other countries are starting to catch on to what America’s been doing and Canada, for example, is gonna have be requiring all their businesses and public entities to make all their maps fully accessible by December twenty twenty eight. And so that’s a huge deal. US hasn’t quite done the businesses yet, but we have public institutions and that that’s a a massive sector. So that that’s gonna be that’s gonna be incredible.

And hopefully we’ll have the ability for blind people to actually draw 3D models as well by then. so that’s what our company’s kind of been researching. So that that’s really my vision for the future. And I sincerely hope it happens. Unfortunately, it’s going to take some people losing lawsuits before it actually really, you know, gets going. It’s what happened with audio description or closed captions. So if you go onto Netflix right now, you can actually view click on pretty much any title and enable audio description and closed captions, which I highly recommend because it dramatically increases the pleasure people get of watching a film. but these were not present before 2014. And so I think it was in 2014.

So I dunno don’t quote me on the exact numbers, but there was a date when Netflix lost a massive lawsuit where they were sued because they didn’t have closed captions on all their content. And they were also sued because they didn’t have audio description on all their content. And they started putting that on there. And now almost every single platform has both audio description and closed captions on all their their videos. And so the same thing will happen with geographic maps. and so, you know, just hope you’re not the person who has to go through and lose that lawsuit. But that’s going to have to happen as well.

Angus Stocking (36:26.85)
Well, Brandon, you paint a beautiful picture of the future and even the present. So from your lips to God’s ear. And for now, thank you for your time and goodbye.

Brandon Biggs – Guest (36:37.506)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.